A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
President Trump has made no secret of his efforts to punish law firms that have represented his perceived enemies. On Thursday, he signed an executive order banning the government from hiring a law firm that represented Hillary Clinton's campaign in the 2016 presidential race, and he signed another order forcing federal agencies to cut ties with the firm that represented special counsel Jack Smith.
The American Bar Association sets ethical standards for lawyers, and leaders there say that the administration is attempting to tip the scales of justice. William R. Bay serves as the ABA's president. He joins us now. So, Bill, in addition to the executive orders I just mentioned, can you walk us through what other actions this administration has taken that you think infringe on the impartiality of the courts?
WILLIAM R BAY: You know, we're really trying to highlight the pattern of words and actions that should concern every American. And I think the incidents you cite, plus some others, really evidence a troubling pattern of actions from the highest level of our government. And really, three things - high-ranking government officials, not just appointed but elected as well, threaten to impeach judges when a decision doesn't go the government's way. Lawyers or law firms are being targeted for suing the government or representing someone the government does not like. I mean, the things you just talked about. And third is the Justice Department lawyers are being punished for simply doing their job. These words and actions interfere with fair and impartial courts, the right to counsel of your choice. It's due process, the freedom of speech, for God's sakes.
MARTÍNEZ: So you think this is a unique moment in history because I can't imagine that - through history that presidents have liked it too much if a court doesn't let them do what they want to do.
BAY: I think the thing that differentiates this is the intensity and the frequency. And really, we don't stand alone in insisting this must stop. I mean, the chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court just wrote about efforts to intimidate judges. I mean, he really decried the efforts of an elected official who was calling for the impeachment of a judge for the decision in a high-profile case - just what's happened here.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, your memo alludes to messages that Elon Musk has posted on X, although you don't identify him by name. Musk has repeatedly called to impeach judges who delay or block aspects of Donald Trump's agenda. But officially, he's a special government employee, and it's not really clear what authority he has in the executive branch. Bill, why does it matter then if he attacks judges online?
BAY: It's not the people that is important. It's the pattern, and it's the number and the frequency. I mean, he is a high-ranking government official. He has a role. It's just simply not right. And I think Americans know it's not right. They know you can't tilt justice one way or the other by saying, oh, you know, I don't like the judge that ruled this way, so we'll get rid of him. That's so fundamentally wrong.
MARTÍNEZ: Can you give us a sense of how all of this affects people outside of the legal profession?
BAY: I think the answer is not complicated. The behavior undermines the rules and the laws that keep everyone in our country safe and secure. They're basic rules of fairness - rules that are supposed to apply to everyone, including the government. Nobody is above the law. Lawyers know and most Americans know that it's important to follow court rulings and the law. I don't agree with every court decision, but if you disagree with the ruling, you appeal it.
MARTÍNEZ: Bill, earlier you mentioned that the American Bar Association is nonpartisan. Republicans, though, have long said that the ABA has become too left wing. So how do you respond to claims that the ABA is partisan or has become partisan?
BAY: The issue of unfair attacks on judges is something we have talked about often. ABA presence have issued 15 separate statements dealing with judicial independence, security and the integrity of the justice system in the U.S. in the past eight years. That's Democratic and Republican administrations. And it's not who we're opposed to. It's what we're in support of. I believe today is the day to do the right thing. If we want America to be great, we must do the right thing every day. And that's why we support the rule of law - the bedrock principles of our democracy - and so that's why we're speaking, once again, for the rule of law because there's a clear pattern we see that would suggest it is under considerable duress.
MARTÍNEZ: William R. Bay is the president of the American Bar Association. William, thank you.
BAY: Thank you very much. Enjoyed talking with you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
